Betfair Australia

[Temujin]

Is Betfair Australia a licensed bookmaker, or a betting exchange? Obviously it is primarily a betting exchange, but did it have to use sub companies to create the illusion of a bookmaker site to become legal?
I remember reading something about it, but not sure if it is true, or if it is still the case?

Either way, the question would then become, if it is a betting exchange, is it therefore an interactive gambling site still? Obviously the main purpose of the site is gambling, but if it merely matches bets on behalf of other people, then could it not get around the interactive gambling act and offer live betting on sports?
Apparantly, Betfairs stance on live trading from Australia has become very lax since its introduction of in play horse racing, as I know of a few people betting live through various means, whereas before, they would be immediately cut off? If they are not going to cut you off, then is it their opinion that it is basically legal, or not enforcable?

[Temujin]

Betfair Internet

Mobile phone Online racing and sports wagering

(Online casino play offered to clients not in Australia) Customer driven deposit and loss limits

Cannot access online casinos, even using a location alias.

Have taken a bit of an extract from http://www.fahcsia.gov.au/sa/gamblin...ments/appA.htm

It shows the measures Australian betting companies have taken to restrict users and such. They suggest it is not possible to play casinos at all with an Australian account.

People are able to bet live though. Surely if they have the ability to block casino users, they would block sport users if they felt it was an issue to them or us?

[ILikeBread]

Apparantly, Betfairs stance on live trading from Australia has become very lax since its introduction of in play horse racing, as I know of a few people betting live through various means, whereas before, they would be immediately cut off? If they are not going to cut you off, then is it their opinion that it is basically legal, or not enforcable?

Betting "in play" in Australia is illegal. So it doesn't matter if betfairs stance becomes softer as if they do something outside of the Interactive Gambling Act they are able to have their gaming license revoked.

I think the reasons why people are not disconnected is because the law only affects users on Australian soil. Therefore even if the account is held by an Australian there is nothing stopping that person from legally gambing in play provided they are outside of Australia. I do remember reading somewhere (dont quote me on it) that the fine for pretending to be coming from another country say via a proxy or vpn can cost you up to $200,000 aus dollars if you are found / it is proven.

Note you are able to do in play betting on the phone. I find this VERY odd as in the majority of users will be using the exact same copper wire (ADSL technology) from their house to the exchange to place the bet whether it be via telephone or router, however one method is considered illegal

[Temujin]

I find it amusing that there would be a fine involved in a law trying to protect you from losing money online....

It is also possible to bet in play at UK bookmakers (bet365 or willhill I believe) without hiding at all... The simple fact that it is so easy for BF to compare addresses of logins in an account, leads me to believe that this is no longer frowned upon, or at least not policed.

I really can't see how you couldn't fight it anyway. It makes absolutely zero sense and costs Australian sports and companies millions each year.

Lets be honest here though, anybody that has watched the odds on a live game, can tell that there are people doing it. How else would they be so quick? On the phone? Kidding yourself. 1 million traded after start of play in the State of Origin. 1 million dollars matched, on the phone? rotflmfao...

[Leonthefixer]

the question would then become, if it is a betting exchange, is it therefore an interactive gambling site still? Obviously the main purpose of the site is gambling, but if it merely matches bets on behalf of other people, then could it not get around the interactive gambling act and offer live betting on sports?

IMO Betfair change the story as to whether we bet against them or each other depending upon the argument.

On Mark Davies blog I questioned this point and it became clear from the T&C that we bet against each other but he was arguing due to the French legislation that we bet against Betfair. However, as he said they would need to change the wording of the T&C to how Betdaq have it.

As I say, they will say what suits the argument imo.

Try asking what it is we actually buy from Betfair and it becomes even more clear as mud.

[Temujin]

Just went through the new terms and conditions that are being bought in. They say they are the same, just reworded, who knows.
What I did notice though, was You will not disguise or interfere in any way with the IP address of the computer you are using to access the Exchange or otherwise take steps to prevent us from correctly identifying the actual IP address of the computer you are using whilst accessing the Exchange. ..

Now as far as I know, people betting from Aus must be doing this, or they can't?
What strikes me as odd, is one of the bigger (? previously were anyway) api vendors, offers a VPS service to access the exchange. Now this will obviously break the terms and conditions of Betfair rule 2.14 to anybody that uses it.

Yeah? So obviously this can't be taken seriously? I mean, access Betfair from a VPS, you aren't likely to have your profits seized, which they later claim they can do?
Surely, Betfair allowing (licensing?) an api vendor that runs in breach of its terms and conditions, makes it a redundant term?

[nigelbleddfa]

What strikes me as odd, is one of the bigger (? previously were anyway) api vendors, offers a VPS service to access the exchange. Now this will obviously break the terms and conditions of Betfair rule 2.14 to anybody that uses it.

Yeah? So obviously this can't be taken seriously? I mean, access Betfair from a VPS, you aren't likely to have your profits seized, which they later claim they can do?
Surely, Betfair allowing (licensing?) an api vendor that runs in breach of its terms and conditions, makes it a redundant term?

You raise a very interesting point. My experience of Betfair is that is susceptible to external pressure and I wouldn't be surprised if Betfair introduced yet more rules to make an exception in the case of people using a VPS system. If they don't, they may alienate some software manufacturers who could, conceivably, drift more in the direction of Betdaq.

[The Joker]

I don't hink Peewee advertises it as a way around the restrictions, and for it to be a legit BF app I would suspect the VPS would clone the users own IP address or at the very elast have to ensure it isnt being used froma banned country, perhaps even an IP passthrough, The BD VPS is advertised "last time I checked" as being for speed from slower International customers i.e. the VPS does all the calls and you just see the updated data, still I guess time will tell whether BF crack down on all the VPS/VPN users, or even if they can, as surely a methodical well thought approach and correct usage would make it nearly impossible for the exchanges to tell where you actually are in the world!??

And as long as BF and the other exchanges take reasonable steps to ensure its legal use then they won't care.. Unless they get booted of course!

[Leonthefixer]

I would guess Betfair are just putting that in to cover their backsides. As for the Bet Devil VPS as has been said they do not advertise it as a way of avoiding detection. As far as I know it requires more than just using a VPS to avoid detection, for example you need to set up an account in a non banned country so I see no issue with the VPS version of Bet Devil.

The VPS version has Bet Devil installed on it so you are using that to interact with the exchange and that will show up on the Betfair systems as the point of access so again no issue there.

Just because it allows someone based in say America to access the exchange is not the fault of Bet Devil, just like it isn't Ford's fault that they supply a Ford Focus RS that will go over 70mph which you in turn use to break the speed limit.

[The Joker]

I would guess Betfair are just putting that in to cover their backsides. As for the Bet Devil VPS as has been said they do not advertise it as a way of avoiding detection. As far as I know it requires more than just using a VPS to avoid detection, for example you need to set up an account in a non banned country so I see no issue with the VPS version of Bet Devil.

Indeed as with the french connection, not only did BF ban french IP addy's they also went by customer "ADRESSES". So to effectively circumvent said restrictions, a non banned postal address would definately be a requirement, I guess for BF to truely close the door they would have to request something like a council tax/ utillity bill in the users name, far too much trouble and whether it would be considerd a "reasonable measure" is debatable........
Also again not too difficult to get around for those willing to put the effort in! Guess that will depend on how much coin you pull from the exchange, the true4ly successfull would probably just up sticks and move to a none banned country, or buy a flat near chenobyl for 10p!

[Temujin]

You will not disguise or interfere in any way with the IP address of the computer you are using to access the Exchange or otherwise take steps to prevent us from correctly identifying the actual IP address of the computer you are using whilst accessing the Exchange. ..

Doesn't matter how BetDevil advertise it. The term states that you will not disguise the IP address of the computer you are using.
I guess for this to be allowed, the VPS then becomes "the computer you are using"?

On a side note: (well, back on main topic anyway)...

A report says Australians using internet gambling services will lose $1 billion this year on sites that are unregulated and operating illegally.

The use of poker sites is growing at a rate of 20 per cent a year.

A Productivity Commission report is calling for interactive online gambling to be legalised so authorities can monitor criminal activity.

But anti-gambling organisations have hit out at the recommendation, saying such a move would only create more problem gamblers.

Current laws allow online gambling sites for sport and racing, but prohibit sites for poker, bingo and casino games.

The Rudd government is expected to hand down the commission report in coming weeks.

As seen from http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Tech...ht_467765.html

Anybody know anything about this, and the likelihood to affect online sports betting? Surely if these sites become legal, so will live sports betting?

[Leonthefixer]

You will not disguise or interfere in any way with the IP address of the computer you are using to access the Exchange or otherwise take steps to prevent us from correctly identifying the actual IP address of the computer you are using whilst accessing the Exchange. ..

Doesn't matter how BetDevil advertise it. The term states that you will not disguise the IP address of the computer you are using.
I guess for this to be allowed, the VPS then becomes "the computer you are using"?

I would say the VPS computer is the computer you are using - for starters the VPS computer is the computer where the software is installed. It is that computer that sends and receives all the data from Betfair, for Bot users they often won't even touch it at all once it is up and running so as I said earlier I can't see any issue at all.

There are hundreds of other people offering VPS solutions the only difference with the Bet Devil one is that they have installed a server version of the software already for you so you don't have to do any of the setting up. As I said, can't see any issue.

Your home computer is only communicating with the VPS not the exchange so as long as you don't do anything to hide the VPS IP address you are not doing anything wrong.

[ILikeBread]

More about Live in play betting on SMH - http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...0529-wmh8.html
Looks like the bigger news companies are starting to write up about this ridiculous law.

[Temujin]

More about Live in play betting on SMH - http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...0529-wmh8.html
Looks like the bigger news companies are starting to write up about this ridiculous law.

Yeah I read that. Are they suggesting that it is legal right now to bet live via a smart phone? Surely an internet enabled phone is still the same as a computer? Doesn't "phone" require a live person transaction, or else it is classed as online?

The other main question here, although I guess the answer is obvious, is is poker a sport? I know it is classed as a sport in many places, whether or not that is the case in Australia I don't know. But if it is, and online poker becomes legal, then, well, so is every other sport.

Frustrating really all this bullshit. Hopefully in the next few weeks this will all be over and boom time for Australian online betting. Many new fish in the sea to gobble up....

[quinney123]

Hello All,

I have been reading this blog and I understand this was nearely a year ago but does anyone know if the ban on in play betting has been up lifted in Australia or is it still the same as before??