Stakes vs. Profits
Hi All,
I'm in the process of trying to set myself achievable daily goals for my trading and my present long term
target is to win back all of my BF losses in a reasonable timescale.
I'm a fairly new trader and have no contact with other traders except via the TT forum.
What I would like to ask is what other members consider to be reasonable daily profits in relation to stakes
submitted.
Eg., at present I'm still using the minimum £2 stakes, so if I complete a days trading and realise a £2 profit,
ie. 100% (forgetting any commission or other BF charges), would that be a reasonable result?
At present, I only trade the horses.
I tend to find that during a full days trading, once I settle in I do ok for 2 or 3 hours and then start to make
silly mistakes and lose some or all of my profits. Obviously I'm entiring the tiredness/diminishing
concentration zone and should call it a day earlier.
I would welcome any feedback on this and if it's been covered previously on the forum, please point me to it.
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jibiko (21st February 2010)
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I reckon that if you can make a profit equal to your stake most days then you're doing pretty well. I use a stake of 10% of bank and aim for a profit of 3% of bank, which is usually do-able. On the odd occasion that I make 10%, I see that as a really good day. It doesn't happen very often
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Crazeewon (18th February 2010)
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It's tough to put a figure on it as one trader might put through several trades per market compared to another who might put only a couple, but in general if you can make your unit stake in about 15-20 markets then you're doing well, particularly if it involves evenly sized wins and losses (i.e. 10p-20p per market).
ROI is the best way to analyse your efficiency, if you're close to 1% your doing well.
Another way is % of bank increase, hitting 10% increase is also a good sign.
As ever though try to think longterm, working out averages over long periods is the best way to see how well you are doing, rather than basing too much emphasis on one day, or worse still one market!
Just keep trying to do your best race by race and when you are tired, stop. No need for targets. Just try to minimise your losses. Be prepared to have lots of small losses which, hopefully, will be covered by just a few more small wins. Get "in and out quickly". If your initial bet doesn't look to have been particularly good, get out and start again. Never be afraid to take losses. Just try to make sure that they are not big. And, of course, never let a bet go in play.
A couple of months ago I had a day when it seemed that I could do nothing right. I didn't lose much but the markets always seemed to go against me. The day was a freak and one of the more experienced traders on this forum had a bad day too. It seemed that the really big traders were making the markets move about as they wished simply to confuse the little kids like me. So, if things go wrong, it's not always your fault.
Keep using the £2 stakes. If you find yourself in profit in a race, depending on the time left before it is due off, either take that profit or have another go. Try not to lose. Once you are happy with that particular race, small win or small loss, jump out and move on to the next one. We have so many race meetings these days that you never have to wait long for a new market.
Slowly your confidence will grow. Being able to readily accept small losses is vital. Never be in a position where you are hoping that the market will turn in your favour to get you out of a hole.
Agree with JS, stake size means nothing as most traders will do more than one trade per market. Your stake size should just be used as a percentage of your bank to ensure you don't expose too much of the bank at one time.
Look at your ROI over a period of at least a week rather than one day and that'll give you an indication of how well you're doing. Some days the opportunities are there others they're not so turnover will vary and whilst you may get a few 5%'s on a weak monday for a few quid, you may find you can pile into one on a liquid saturday for a 1% return which will bring a lot more.
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Crazeewon (18th February 2010)
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I didnt really set targets for a day, I was happy to get profit at first, but I felt that when using £10 stakes, £3 for a day was a good return ( totally subjective I know, some people might think that is quite low). So when I moved up to £20 stakes, I was happy to get £6. Recently I seemed to have improved somewhat and am getting over £6 quite often now, so I have upped my "good day" to £10 for £20 stakes. Don't get downhearted if you don't hit your target, just be happy for having any sort of profit
Thanks for all of your replies. I realise that profits/losses over say, a month are more meaningful than just
one day, it's just that I wondered if I was expecting too much return out of so small a stake.
Seems like I'm not doing too badly then cos I regularly make £3 or so per day (except for those sheet days
when everything goes ass over teets)
Aim for 1% return from your matched bets, get half of that and you're doing well, trading just isn't a high return game so you'll need to turn over volume to make it pay.
This is almost like reading about me CrazeewonOriginally Posted by Crazeewon
Not sure how long you've been a it, bt I started in Jan this year. I mentioned in my thread that today, I've realised that I've gone completely off my initial trade plan, and it's caused me no end of mental turmoil, and bad trades, and the feeling of being lost.
It nice to know that there is someone on here at the same time as me, that sounds like they are pretty much in exactly the same position as me. It'd be nice to keep in touch, and help each other stay focused and motivated.
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Crazeewon (19th February 2010)
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Is that 10% a day? For me, a 10% increase in bank in a day would be a good day (they don't happen that often, though!)
I agree that you shouldn't put too much emphasis on what you want to achieve on a daily basis, especially if you're using min stakes. As I've said before, focus on what you're doing and get good at that and the results will follow. That said, you should record what you do.
As nigelbleddfa says, try not to lose, but be prepared to take losses. Trading to me feels a bit like walking a tightrope sometimes. There's a fine line between getting it right and wrong, you've just got to try and get on that rope and stay on!
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Crazeewon (19th February 2010)
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On another note Crazeewon have you a set amount you are willing to lose daily (every one wants £0) as i think its important as setting a daily profit target, i have a self instilled stop loss for the day which if i hit i stop, as it will have ment i have a hot a run of losse's and nothing is going my way and thus losses get bigger
But in answer to your question, i take any profit and i am happy with it from a £1 a day to £100+ as this is a hobby to me and i want it to remain as such .
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Crazeewon (19th February 2010)
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I think my trading's coming on ok, I understand the basics and I seem to learn more everyday. I think I was expecting too much profit from small stakes but from what people say, I seem to be doing ok. My big fault is accepting losses but I think that's a biggy for most people.
Yeah, skimmed over this. I think to summarise some points made, and put my spin (skimmed over, so maybe just repeating), daily profits don't really mean much. A day is nothing more than a short period of your trading session, which imho lasts from your first trade ever, til your last trade ever. A day is just a bigger timescale of a single market.
A month is similar again, however since you have bills and such to pay, you should be looking to be pretty consistant over a week, definately a fortnight, in what you can expect.
As for returns, it really depends on your bank, and the markets you play.
I used a 2000 liability to make 10,000 on a tennis match. Turned over bulk with that liabilty, but that is what it is about. At the same time, last night I turned over about 25k using a 1k liability on AFL, and made 15 dollars. As long as the average is decent, then you should be happy.
But, the point here, is that returns depend on the market size. If your bank is 100k, and you are playing in an AUS dog market, then there is a fair chance your bank is about 20* the size of total traded in a market. Pretty clear that you won't make a high % on your bank here.
So using a 2 pound stake, it is much easier to realise a high return rate, as you are guaranteed that when you enter a trade, your full stake is at play, and on closing a trade, you won't affect the market, as such will get the best value that you request. Stake is too high, you will lose efficiency because you need to close your trade.
So definately don't look at making 100% of your 2 pound stakes now, as the equivalent of increasing your stakes to 2000 and making 100% of your stake.
I think a well regarded figure, assuming you are using a sensible stake for the market, is around 10% of your bank per day, so using 2000, is definately acceptable to make 10%. Any good, and you should be able to make 20-25% though. But then, 5% is ok as well.
If you are profitable, and can afford to live, then that is a pretty good start. Not many people can claim that....
Good luck with it.
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Crazeewon (20th February 2010)
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Hi Temujin, thanks for your post.
I've never used stakes much higher than £3 so far but I can see it will be a whole different ballgame using larger stakes. Often I can nip into a gap in the market with my £2 and I'm matched on both sides quicker than the eye can see (when using tick offset). This ain't going to happen when betting 100's or 1,000's but that's not going to worry me for a few months/years
Today is the first day of my new trading life.........The Disciplined Crazeewon!.........watch this space!
Cheers
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jibiko (21st February 2010)
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Hi Ron, I know you're right, I should stop when things go pear-shaped and the losses mount up.
Hindsight has often told me this..... but do I listen.....do I ferk
People look for the secrets that will make them successful traders but I think most of us already know.
It's making ourselves concentrate, be patient and disciplined in using that knowledge that's the hard part.
How many posts do you read where people advise newcomers to get out and accept small losses AND THEN admit they did the exact opposite themselves the very same day.
Happy trading!
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jibiko (21st February 2010)
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Helllo all, first time ive posted on here and the first time ive managed to find some real traders!! until now i didnt know how i've been doing i trade the horses and football in-play... the football i find have to be alot more selective but profit can be alot higher.... it seems alot of you are happy with a small turnover however its the learning thats important since feb ive made just over 200% profit, just come on here to share experience and info with others in the hope for some in return, mainly with trends and strategies for low risk for reasonable profit. i think the main thing to be taken from this thread is a couple of small points that havent really been emphasised... human emotion its imperative we dont alow it to cloud our judgement as this is where .... 99% trading mistakes come from i find.
Chuck
I make everyday 4-5$ at the average. It's avarage for me. Sometimes 20$, sometimes 0$. I'm not good trader.
I think it's really easy to make at least 50% of your stake pre-race when using small stakes like 2 or 5. Just my advice would be to trade the highest priced horses... I often create free bets of 200+ on the outsiders using just 2e stakes... And if I can do it, you can too! It's worth to let those go inplay when it's just a small field and the outsiders has a high change of making a good run for a while.
just my 2 cents...
How free bet? BF don't give me free bet. I had to have 30$ bonus, but they don't pay me it.
It is a free bet at the end because you have 0 liability on the others, and profit on the traded horse. He simply means he doesn't hedge those particular profits, prefers to have the horse running around for him for the chance of a big win.
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