Trading as we see it...

[Cran]

I have read somewhere that trading is about 90% psychology 10% trading.
Maybe it is that way, but if so,
I think this comes after you find your edge

[KOTBIIAJIbTO]

Practice and finding your edge are ofc necessary but it's easier to do it with the right attitude

[KOTBIIAJIbTO]

Trading sometimes reminds me of feeding my little fish. It's always hungry and starts jumping up and down trying to bite my fingers off

[loktari]

haha nice one.

[bazbaz]

You do need the right mindset, even if you dont have an edge, to better help you find one. Otherwise you can miss opportunities or not take advantage of things you see if your mind if wrapped in thinking in the wrtong way (i.e. how well am I doing? what will this mean for ME, rather than 100% concentration on the markets.) If a baby was as egoic as most adults when trying to learn a new skill it would never learn to walk properly because it would constantly be questioning what would happen to it if it didnt learn to walk...... "is this right, oh no Im wobbling all over the place here, if I carry on like this Im gonna look so stupid, oh shit I've fallen over..... this is so tough, it looks so simple when others are doing it.... better get up and try again, god I hope I dont mess up again...." etc etc

I think this is a good thread. I think it takes a lot of courage to question yourself enough to become aware that the way that you are thinking maybe detrimental to your success. Fact is to trade properly you do have to be stronger mentally than most people, not that Im saying that most people have mental problems or are inferior, but if you want to do something like this then you have to be better than the herd. Some people naturally switch off their ego when they start trading and for them its easier, but most people need to detach themselves from the kind of subtle negative thinking which has infected most people on the planet. For instance..... something goes wrong.... so what do you do? you moan, right? I mean its normal.... you miss your train because it leaves early by 10 seconds.... so you get pissed off, maybe glare at the guard.... spend a bit of time thinking how crap the trains are in this country and how other people were moaning on the news etc.... Fair enough, only when you're trading you cant really afford yourself this luxury. If a giant volume spike goes through you and you lose 6 ticks then you cant sit there getting angry about it as the markets are still there to be traded and made money from. If you're thinking about that loss during your next trade then you're not focussing 100% and you're likely to make mistakes and not be as aware of everything that is going on as you should. You then lose on the next race. Which pisses you off further, and then you get a bit unlucky on the next. Suddenly you're on a bad run and your mindset is now bad and you could be facing further punishment..... and not only have you lost on those last 2 races but you also failed to win the money you most likely would have, had you remained calm and dispassionate after that first volume spike went in

[Caan Berry]

Indeed baz, i like your baby example... think of it this way with regards to fear....

the first time a child meets a dog it gets bitten, the next time it meets a dog the dog is nice but the child does not see this as he's too busy being scared and remembering the past... he cant even see the next dog is in fact nice...
just like market to market, if you got burnt in the one before you may not get burnt in the next... but depending on how you look at it you might be scared and not enter... enter to late bla bla bla

[KOTBIIAJIbTO]

the first time a child meets a dog it gets bitten, the next time it meets a dog the dog is nice but the child does not see this as he's too busy being scared and remembering the past... he cant even see the next dog is in fact nice...

Women sometimes behave the same way too

You do need the right mindset, even if you dont have an edge, to better help you find one. Otherwise you can miss opportunities or not take advantage of things you see if your mind if wrapped in thinking in the wrtong way (i.e. how well am I doing? what will this mean for ME, rather than 100% concentration on the markets.)

More than that, when a person with a wrong mindset gets the edge he might not even recognise it cause the results may still be poor...

[PesceLesso]

I appreciate that we all see the markets differently, and every interpretation of trading is equally valid as we are individuals.....however, the war/battle metaphor is very dangerous for me in that it raises ego. Most of my day is spent trying to separate my emotional mind from my logical mind and I can't take Jib's Sun Tzu approach when thinking of trading as a fight.

For me the markets are like a business partner - together we aim to make money but I would love more control over it. The crucial thing is that we are on friendly terms.

being in a battle, a fight , a duel, nullifies completely my ego.
I have no time and no use for it.
it's a matter of life or death, ego would kill me in a blink. no way around.

I do respect very much my foe
it's way more powerful than I am
and I can't pause staring into its eyes even when I bow acknowledging its strength and paying my respect
it could be the instant it decided to trigger its attack
so my attention and readiness can never be lowered

I know my moves, I know my weapons
I trained myself up to the point emotions stay out but so does logic
neither heart nor brain,
just nothingness

and rather that The Art of War I'd recommend Bushido and a lot of practice in kendo, aikido or any martial art.

btw: all the team games (football, rugby, american football, waterball, baseball, basket, etc.) are war/battle's metaphors, as much as heads up games are of duels.

that's obviously just my point of view...

[jibiko]

Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" has nothing to do with "raising ego", on the contrary
(you can find it in the TT library and check it for yourself).

The only place you can find "ego boost" was in my lyricism (post no44).
I was just overreacted, (artistic/poetic license also,
because the thread gave me that freedom -trading as a metaphor-)
so as to make my point clear
that chuck's battle example was an unfortunate one.

p.s. I thought of posting this today
to clarify the SunTzu/wagonmaster thing,
but then saw bazbaz's post
and decided to left it out
because I saw that he moved the conversation forward
and I didn't want to bring it back.

Pesce's post was needed though, to put things straight
according to the war/battle issue.
Thanks Pesce.

Your biggest enemy in a battle is yourself, imho.
If so, then it's easy to understand that war/battle and "raising ego"
have nothing in common, on the contrary.
It's more like...
humble...humble...humble...kill ya...dead.
Although I prefer Pesce's lyricism, on this matter (see above).

[wagonmastergeneral]

y
to clarify the SunTzu/wagonmaster thing

Agree the martial art approach would be by far the best - my point was that it battle raises my ego (unfortunately) and hence is dangerous for me. I am not trained to a high enough level to empty my brain.

I hope no-one thought I was dissing sun tzu etc only that I need a different metaphor than battle to get my head in the right space to trade effectively. It makes me too angry. I like the fishing one too btw.

[KOTBIIAJIbTO]

Betfair trading sometimes really reminds me playing Dota Allstars in which there are two teams: the Sentinel and the Scourge. Each of them is pushing up or down. There are also three lanes ("favourites"), etc... The only difference is each time you enter a Betfair market you can always choose on which side you are fighting

[LuckyYou]

I do not know is this a metaphor or not, but for me Betfair reminds me to that:
The Financial Markets are the closest ones to the so called "Perfect competition" or "Laissez-faire". Betfair - as improvised financial market for me is one of the most modern innovative and sophisticated markets in the World and as any Financial market - the closest to "Laissez-faire". A pure sing of Capitalism.
Ok i go get some pills

[Caan Berry]

Ist Laissez-faire a style of leadership where its a kind of 'free forum' to overcome the problem supposed to authocratic and democratic?

[kawasaki]

for me it looks like pond full of crocodiles. you came here for recreation, put your finger in the water and....













BOOOM! croc jumps out of water and cuts your arm off.... sometimes with head also

[wagonmastergeneral]

Ist Laissez-faire a style of leadership where its a kind of 'free forum' to overcome the problem supposed to authocratic and democratic?

I think it means 'leave alone' i.e. there's no restrictive rules around the market and it's just money vs money and now't else.

Generally what happens in a laissez faire economy is that the big boys get bigger and everyone else fights for scraps.

At least betfair was until the cross matching bot decided that the 'government' would actually intervene and take a slice, therefore potentially affecting the price for everyone else. evil