Trading as we see it...

[bazbaz]

You do need the right mindset, even if you dont have an edge, to better help you find one. Otherwise you can miss opportunities or not take advantage of things you see if your mind if wrapped in thinking in the wrtong way (i.e. how well am I doing? what will this mean for ME, rather than 100% concentration on the markets.) If a baby was as egoic as most adults when trying to learn a new skill it would never learn to walk properly because it would constantly be questioning what would happen to it if it didnt learn to walk...... "is this right, oh no Im wobbling all over the place here, if I carry on like this Im gonna look so stupid, oh shit I've fallen over..... this is so tough, it looks so simple when others are doing it.... better get up and try again, god I hope I dont mess up again...." etc etc

I think this is a good thread. I think it takes a lot of courage to question yourself enough to become aware that the way that you are thinking maybe detrimental to your success. Fact is to trade properly you do have to be stronger mentally than most people, not that Im saying that most people have mental problems or are inferior, but if you want to do something like this then you have to be better than the herd. Some people naturally switch off their ego when they start trading and for them its easier, but most people need to detach themselves from the kind of subtle negative thinking which has infected most people on the planet. For instance..... something goes wrong.... so what do you do? you moan, right? I mean its normal.... you miss your train because it leaves early by 10 seconds.... so you get pissed off, maybe glare at the guard.... spend a bit of time thinking how crap the trains are in this country and how other people were moaning on the news etc.... Fair enough, only when you're trading you cant really afford yourself this luxury. If a giant volume spike goes through you and you lose 6 ticks then you cant sit there getting angry about it as the markets are still there to be traded and made money from. If you're thinking about that loss during your next trade then you're not focussing 100% and you're likely to make mistakes and not be as aware of everything that is going on as you should. You then lose on the next race. Which pisses you off further, and then you get a bit unlucky on the next. Suddenly you're on a bad run and your mindset is now bad and you could be facing further punishment..... and not only have you lost on those last 2 races but you also failed to win the money you most likely would have, had you remained calm and dispassionate after that first volume spike went in

[loktari]

haha nice one.

[KOTBIIAJIbTO]

Trading sometimes reminds me of feeding my little fish. It's always hungry and starts jumping up and down trying to bite my fingers off

[KOTBIIAJIbTO]

Practice and finding your edge are ofc necessary but it's easier to do it with the right attitude

[Cran]

I have read somewhere that trading is about 90% psychology 10% trading.
Maybe it is that way, but if so,
I think this comes after you find your edge

[jibiko]

Wouldn't you like to be manipulated, fukced, killed or something else, would you? Don't wish such things to others then.

No I wouldn't like it and I don't wish anything to noone.
I can understand the underlying by you of the moral values and karma.

I just wanted to pinpoint that the battle example
that chuck used was an unfortunate one
to prove a valid point though.

Don't forget that we are speaking metaphorically here.
With this basis in our mind,
we can liken trading with 1.000 things
and most of them can be correct.

Now... on another point...

I think that...

Chuck's real quest is not to find the metaphor.
Chuck is very interested to find the correct attitude,
state of mind, establishing the correct mindset etc...etc...
in order to do his job.

I have a feeling that many people are in this quest.

You can use anything that suits you on this.

You can use all the gayness that you can think of
like cleaning the toilet with a toothbrush
or wearing a skirt and taking a walk in the park
whenever you do a blunder
or any other sadomasochistic crap
you can think of...and guess what...it can work...I think.
You can read all the religion, philosophy, psychology,
trading books in the world and take 3 masters on them also
and they can help you too.
You can use this link.
You can use that link.
You can use the other link.

All the above roads, ways, will lead you to the same destination:
How to do your job properly.

Imho, people (and especially n00bs, I think)
are using way too much time on this
instead of
actually trading,
thinking about trading,
talking about trading,
trying to find their edge.

I have read somewhere that trading is about 90% psychology 10% trading.
Maybe it is that way, but if so,
I think this comes after you find your edge.

In conclusion, I would like to add that imho
in life, things are simple
but people always try to overcomplicate them.
I think the same goes for trading also.

[KOTBIIAJIbTO]

I think that Altruism is one thing and Trading (bargain) is another.
When two people bargain for a price,
I don't see anything altruistic in it.
More I can say the bargain is egoistic.

Each side is doing the best to achieve its own interests.
When the seller lowers little by little the price in a bargain,
he is not doing it for altruistic reasons.
He wanna sell and just tries to make the most money he can.
The buyer in the bargain tries to pay as less as possible so as
to keep as much as possible in the pocket.

This smells manipulation man. Not altruism.
It's side tries to manipulate the other
and bring it to its "waters".

True altruism is not a bargain.
True altruism has nothing to do with "I 'll do this, You 'll do that".

The nature of bargaining is an interesting philosophical issue and there are different theories in this field. Our dispute may be endless cause it's the dialogue between the two cultures: Western (quite aggressive) and Eastern which is more balanced and harmony-oriented. Feel free to chose whatever approach you like. I'm pretty sure though that no one can succeed by trying to manipulate the others which is a direct violation of Kantian Categorical Imperative principal. In other words you have to treat others the way you want to be treated yourself. Wouldn't you like to be manipulated, fukced, killed or something else, would you? Don't wish such things to others then. By the way, as a big Dota Allstars fan i can tell you that if you are way too aggressive in battle and are eager to rape your enemies, their wives and cats, you most likely will be stuffed yourself not only once

[Knight Rider]

Click here for direct access

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[wagonmastergeneral]

or better:

trading markets is a war
each single trading session a battle.

I appreciate that we all see the markets differently, and every interpretation of trading is equally valid as we are individuals.....however, the war/battle metaphor is very dangerous for me in that it raises ego. Most of my day is spent trying to separate my emotional mind from my logical mind and I can't take Jib's Sun Tzu approach when thinking of trading as a fight.

For me the markets are like a business partner - together we aim to make money but I would love more control over it. The crucial thing is that we are on friendly terms.

[PesceLesso]

or better:

trading markets is a war
each single trading session a battle.

[PesceLesso]

my 2 cents:

in the old days, when trading commodities was confined within the border of the "floor yelling pits", some of those so "nice" bargains ended up with people shooting each other. literally. bang bang. with guns.

if you owned a chair in the trading pit and try to make a living out of it, you know perfectly well who physically got your money or who you took money from.

nowadays all we see is a computer screen but things haven't changed. you took money out of someone, someone took money out of you. that's it. and you always do yr bests to be the predator rather than the prey.

even here in this environment, as much as I enjoy it, winners (the few) are actually taking the losers' (the most) money. no way around it.

IT IS a battle. always.
and a fierce and bloody one: no prisoners.

[jibiko]

Altruism.

Thank you for bringing up
such a beautiful and almost forgotten word nowdays.

Now...if you mean that because Kabbalah and altruism
they are good in bargain, I think that you are wrong.

Kaballah doesn't have the monopoly to altruism.
Most, of the world's religions (and philosophies)
promote altruism as a very important moral value.
Even Masons do (I have a feeling that they are coming close second at bargain).


I think that Altruism is one thing and Trading (bargain) is another.
When two people bargain for a price,
I don't see anything altruistic in it.
More I can say the bargain is egoistic.

Each side is doing the best to achieve its own interests.
When the seller lowers little by little the price in a bargain,
he is not doing it for altruistic reasons.
He wanna sell and just tries to make the most money he can.
The buyer in the bargain tries to pay as less as possible so as
to keep as much as possible in the pocket.

This smells manipulation man. Not altruism.
It's side tries to manipulate the other
and bring it to its "waters".

True altruism is not a bargain.
True altruism has nothing to do with "I 'll do this, You 'll do that".

[KOTBIIAJIbTO]

Look how jews trade (bargain) and they are the masters of it.
It's a battle between two people for da price.

Very good example. Jews are indeed masters of bargain and the central part of their mystic doctrine Kabbalah (of which Madonna is fond of) is... Altruism! If you are too egoistic and always ask for the most favourable prices your bets just wont get matched, that's all.

Can i ask you KOTBIIAJIbTO , your average stake and if you use tick offset , if yes at how many ticks ?

My average stake is 150 US dollars, but to my shame i've never used tick offset. Maybe i should start using it 'cause sometimes the market is moving so fast i just don't have enough time to place counter-bets manually...

[jibiko]

That's a way too egoistic approach

Egoistic?
Yes. It is.
The purpose of this game is to get da money.
Classic capitalistic game.

Trading is not only about taking, but it's also about giving. When the market goes the wrong way you have to give away your hard earned money and if you are too selfish or aggressive it may result in a disaster.

I agree.
The same goes in a battle.
Retreat, Regroup, Counterattack, Attack.

Running away from a battle is called cowardice and its another thing
and it has nothing to do with it.

I think the numbers are a little bit to high

I don't know. Maybe you are right.
I have seen them posted in the internetz by various ppl
and I just used them as an example.
I don't know the validity of them.

the point was trading may be a battle but think of it as a battle and its more likely to end in pain

If it is a battle, think of it as such and act accordingly.
If it is a game, think of it as such and act accordingly.
If it is like surfing, think of it as such and act accordingly.
If it is like sailing, think of it as such and act accordingly.
If it is like life, just give it your best shot.

In conclusion...

I think your point (using the battle example) was to say
that you have to be coldblooded,
like Dr. Hannibal Lecter,
or a bot.
I agree with this.
I just believe that you used an unfortunate example.
Because you can find a lot of similarities between trading and a battle.

Trading in itself have the world battle in it, in a way.
Look how jews trade (bargain) and they are the masters of it.
It's a battle between two people for da price.

[theman73]

Can i ask you KOTBIIAJIbTO , your average stake and if you use tick offset , if yes at how many ticks ?