How do we trade? Tick-offset?

Bumble · 7th November 2010, 06:36 AM

This may be a repeat question - sorry.

I'd be interested to hear how seasoned traders work. I use the ladder interface, no confirm bets, for horses pre-off. I've been using tick-offset with a 1 tick gap.

I've been looking for a trend and then adding my bet to the queue. If I think the price is moving out, click to lay at the current lay price. Watch and wait. The bet is taken. My offset bet joins the queue for the bet price.

I'm starting to question whether this is a good approach. While I'm waiting in the queue, the market may well change.

Yesterday I did something different. I turned off the tick-offset and started taking available price (expecting the price to move out, place a bet one tick out, then lay the bet that is on offer - it's taken immediately and I'm positioned when the market moves).

I also tried placing both back and lay bets a couple of ticks clear of the action, watching for a move and then either back or lay on available price accordingly (with finger hovering over the X so I can clear bets once my 2nd bet is taken).

I'd appreciate hearing comments from those with a winning streak. Do you join the queue or do you take prices on offer? Do you use tick-offset or do you do it manually? In general, any thoughts on how you trade pre-race would be welcome.

TRADER68 · 7th November 2010, 10:14 AM

Firstly i will point out i am using the grid and trading in the middle range of the market.Timeframes decide whether i would take whats on offer or wait.If i was trading early as the market was ranging i may take a price and set the offset well of the front incase a big bet comes in and i get lucky.I would then gradually break it up and try scaling it back.Remembering to switch the offset off so my other trades dont trigger it again.If i was trading nearer the off i would wait untill the market came to me (a few ticks away) and set the offset at 1.It very often matches both at the same time.I would be against taking the price if someone is willing to offer it unless i had strong indications.
Keep in mind closer to the off any one with a position to hedge can move the market by a tick or so by closing there position.The projected s.p may be of help to you.
Best of luck.

chuck536 · 7th November 2010, 01:05 PM

I think its different for each instance personally i have used tick offset before although i dont now as the market can change so quick.. also depending on stake size it can unbalance your position. £75 and under id use it... above that id rather let it ride... if your using over £200 id rather let the price hit my exit before i try to pull it out. Hope that helps.... its like alot of things in trading there is no correct answer.

old geezer · 7th November 2010, 04:41 PM

I agree with Chuck, I don't think there is a correct answer to Bumbles question.
There are too many variables to consider - liquidity and volatility and the appearance of 'spoof' money in a market.
The ladder interface and charts can give an indication of liquidity and volatility and you can learn to identify 'spoof' money.
The problem with aiming for just 1 tick movement is that you have got to use very high stakes to make it worthwhile if you are 'greening-up' pre-race,and in many instances the liquidity is just not there.
I personally, very much doubt, whether some of the 'high-rollers' whose blogs we have all read, could possibly have made the five and six figure annual profits from pre-race trading;but that is my personal assessment

theman73 · 7th November 2010, 05:01 PM

Hi

At what number are you thinking whend you say ,,you have got to use very high stakes to make it worthwhile,, ???

I trade pre-race from two months , i'm still on minus , i still dont find the solution to make my trading profitable ..... but i must reconize , my minus is from leave it in play and strange or not because of pushing hedging buton on green but the final was red

I'm still on tick offset at 1 tick , hopes in the future i will see what other traders see on the market .

Anyone here use statistic on favorite ?

Regards

Quote:

Originally Posted by old geezer

I agree with Chuck, I don't think there is a correct answer to Bumbles question.
There are too many variables to consider - liquidity and volatility and the appearance of 'spoof' money in a market.
The ladder interface and charts can give an indication of liquidity and volatility and you can learn to identify 'spoof' money.
The problem with aiming for just 1 tick movement is that you have got to use very high stakes to make it worthwhile if you are 'greening-up' pre-race,and in many instances the liquidity is just not there.
I personally, very much doubt, whether some of the 'high-rollers' whose blogs we have all read, could possibly have made the five and six figure annual profits from pre-race trading;but that is my personal assessment

old geezer · 7th November 2010, 07:04 PM

Hi theman

Say you are trading the favourite in the Betfair price range 2.02 - 3.00
1 tick movement equals 0.02
A trading stake of £100 with a 1 tick movement in your favour would give a profit of £2
If you 'green-up' pre-race, to ensure a profit whichever horse wins, the profit will be £2 divided by the odds currently available when you press the hedge button.
It sounds as if you are letting your trade go in-running,which is a high risk strategy.
Look at the Betfair increments for different price ranges and do the calculation.
The higher the horses trading price, there may be less chance of getting say £100 matched because of lack of liquidity.
As you know most of the trading activity is on the first three or four in the betting.

chuck536 · 7th November 2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by old geezer

I personally, very much doubt, whether some of the 'high-rollers' whose blogs we have all read, could possibly have made the five and six figure annual profits from pre-race trading;but that is my personal assessment

Personally i think them sort of profits are definately possible if you have the time to dedicate to them, to do 3k a month you only need to average £150 a day... 5 day weeks of course, 30 races in a day its only £5 a market average. So to hit 6 figures you'd need to do 8.3k a month, quite a lot i must admit but that only equates to £416 a day.... £13.88 a race if there's 30. I dont make those figures personally but its definately possible, especially if one of the 5 days a week is a saturday and you have a large bank.

All that said i dobt there are many who do take that kind of dosh

You make a good point about £100 at 0.02 only £2 a tick but what you didnt mention is the favs of that prace usually range over 10 - 12 ticks or so... only gotta ride it once with a few hundred to make a good return, there's still light at the end of the tunnel

Temujin · 8th November 2010, 01:48 AM

I think the only wrong way to trade, is to be stagnant. Every market is different, and every trade is different. Unless you have a 100% automatic entry/exit point, then each time you enter or exit the market should be based on the conditions at the time.
Meaning, tick offset generally is not to be used. Not to say it doesn't have its place, but what happens if you correctly identify a 20 tick move, and you get paid 1 tick for it? Doesn't seem like you are making the most of a trade to me. If you only ever aim for 1 tick, you are only ever going to achieve 1 tick.

Not trying to suggest that some trades aren't single tick trades, just suggesting that if you use a tick offset, you are guaranteeing that they will not be any more than 1 tick trades.
At least, that is my opinion on why I don't use tick offset anyway.

Lets say, you get a spike. Price trading at 2.00, you have tick offset on 1. Price spikes down to 1.88, you are quick enough to grab it. You trade out at 1.89 because of your tick offset, even though you should get closer to 2.00. Why would I want to throw away money like that?

7th November 2010, 06:36 AM	#1
Bumble Novice Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: London Posts: 19 Thanks: 51 Thanked 24 Times in 10 Posts	How do we trade? Tick-offset? This may be a repeat question - sorry. I'd be interested to hear how seasoned traders work. I use the ladder interface, no confirm bets, for horses pre-off. I've been using tick-offset with a 1 tick gap. I've been looking for a trend and then adding my bet to the queue. If I think the price is moving out, click to lay at the current lay price. Watch and wait. The bet is taken. My offset bet joins the queue for the bet price. I'm starting to question whether this is a good approach. While I'm waiting in the queue, the market may well change. Yesterday I did something different. I turned off the tick-offset and started taking available price (expecting the price to move out, place a bet one tick out, then lay the bet that is on offer - it's taken immediately and I'm positioned when the market moves). I also tried placing both back and lay bets a couple of ticks clear of the action, watching for a move and then either back or lay on available price accordingly (with finger hovering over the X so I can clear bets once my 2nd bet is taken). I'd appreciate hearing comments from those with a winning streak. Do you join the queue or do you take prices on offer? Do you use tick-offset or do you do it manually? In general, any thoughts on how you trade pre-race would be welcome. Last edited by Bumble; 7th November 2010 at 06:37 AM. Reason: clarity

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7th November 2010, 10:14 AM	#2
TRADER68 Forum Addict Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 427 Thanks: 978 Thanked 315 Times in 242 Posts	Firstly i will point out i am using the grid and trading in the middle range of the market.Timeframes decide whether i would take whats on offer or wait.If i was trading early as the market was ranging i may take a price and set the offset well of the front incase a big bet comes in and i get lucky.I would then gradually break it up and try scaling it back.Remembering to switch the offset off so my other trades dont trigger it again.If i was trading nearer the off i would wait untill the market came to me (a few ticks away) and set the offset at 1.It very often matches both at the same time.I would be against taking the price if someone is willing to offer it unless i had strong indications. Keep in mind closer to the off any one with a position to hedge can move the market by a tick or so by closing there position.The projected s.p may be of help to you. Best of luck.

7th November 2010, 01:05 PM	#3
chuck536 Forum Guru Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 938 Thanks: 448 Thanked 578 Times in 307 Posts	I think its different for each instance personally i have used tick offset before although i dont now as the market can change so quick.. also depending on stake size it can unbalance your position. £75 and under id use it... above that id rather let it ride... if your using over £200 id rather let the price hit my exit before i try to pull it out. Hope that helps.... its like alot of things in trading there is no correct answer.

7th November 2010, 04:41 PM	#4
old geezer Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 61 Thanks: 45 Thanked 23 Times in 11 Posts	I agree with Chuck, I don't think there is a correct answer to Bumbles question. There are too many variables to consider - liquidity and volatility and the appearance of 'spoof' money in a market. The ladder interface and charts can give an indication of liquidity and volatility and you can learn to identify 'spoof' money. The problem with aiming for just 1 tick movement is that you have got to use very high stakes to make it worthwhile if you are 'greening-up' pre-race,and in many instances the liquidity is just not there. I personally, very much doubt, whether some of the 'high-rollers' whose blogs we have all read, could possibly have made the five and six figure annual profits from pre-race trading;but that is my personal assessment

7th November 2010, 07:04 PM	#6
old geezer Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 61 Thanks: 45 Thanked 23 Times in 11 Posts	Hi theman Say you are trading the favourite in the Betfair price range 2.02 - 3.00 1 tick movement equals 0.02 A trading stake of £100 with a 1 tick movement in your favour would give a profit of £2 If you 'green-up' pre-race, to ensure a profit whichever horse wins, the profit will be £2 divided by the odds currently available when you press the hedge button. It sounds as if you are letting your trade go in-running,which is a high risk strategy. Look at the Betfair increments for different price ranges and do the calculation. The higher the horses trading price, there may be less chance of getting say £100 matched because of lack of liquidity. As you know most of the trading activity is on the first three or four in the betting.

8th November 2010, 01:48 AM	#8
Temujin Australian Cultural Attaché Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,530 Thanks: 493 Thanked 1,014 Times in 494 Posts	I think the only wrong way to trade, is to be stagnant. Every market is different, and every trade is different. Unless you have a 100% automatic entry/exit point, then each time you enter or exit the market should be based on the conditions at the time. Meaning, tick offset generally is not to be used. Not to say it doesn't have its place, but what happens if you correctly identify a 20 tick move, and you get paid 1 tick for it? Doesn't seem like you are making the most of a trade to me. If you only ever aim for 1 tick, you are only ever going to achieve 1 tick. Not trying to suggest that some trades aren't single tick trades, just suggesting that if you use a tick offset, you are guaranteeing that they will not be any more than 1 tick trades. At least, that is my opinion on why I don't use tick offset anyway. Lets say, you get a spike. Price trading at 2.00, you have tick offset on 1. Price spikes down to 1.88, you are quick enough to grab it. You trade out at 1.89 because of your tick offset, even though you should get closer to 2.00. Why would I want to throw away money like that?