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Thread: Advice from Full - time Pro Traders

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    Default Advice from Full - time Pro Traders

    Hi all!

    I thought I'd start a thread to give you all the opportunity to spread your knowledge about a bit!

    I need to know what sort of BANK is required and what sort of STAKES I'll need to place to trade in profit of £500 a week+

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugged View Post
    Hi all!

    I thought I'd start a thread to give you all the opportunity to spread your knowledge about a bit!

    I need to know what sort of BANK is required and what sort of STAKES I'll need to place to trade in profit of £500 a week+
    How long is a piece of string? Everythings relative and depends on your trading style etc, if you're just starting out I wouldn't be bothered about those type of things just yet. Learn how to trade and make a profit on a consistent basis first, once you've managed that it'll be easy to work out how much you need to turnover to achieve realistic weekly amounts.

    Some people swing trade, some people tick trade, so banks can vary as much as styles, trading £100 bank into £100 per week is alot easier than trading a £5K bank into £5k a week. Personally I'd say £500 per week from a £500 bank would be acheivable from my style of trading others may need a bigger bank, others less, the Geek could probably do it in a day from £20

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    Novice TheMuntedPunter's Avatar
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    wow 100% ROI per week!very impressive... I will be happy with 1% per day off my $10K when I get started FT next month.

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    Do NOT consider using any large bank until you have learned to make money from a small one. Unless you are incredibly gifted you will lose!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMuntedPunter View Post
    wow 100% ROI per week!very impressive... I will be happy with 1% per day off my $10K when I get started FT next month.
    You might be lucky to make a 100% return in any one week but the chances of you doing it regularly, with your current level of experience, are zero.

    There is no such thing as "easy money". My advice is for you to trade for fun and get clued up. I know almost all the technical ( mathematical) and theoretical aspects of trading better than most people but I am still no way near being a trader in the true meaning of the word. I have been playing around with it for five years and have a long way to go yet.

    Trading can only be done in an atmosphere where there are no distractions. This is virtually impossible for someone like me who has family commitments. So, I am going to treat it purely as my favourite hobby now that I don't go fishing anymore

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMuntedPunter View Post
    wow 100% ROI per week!very impressive... I will be happy with 1% per day off my $10K when I get started FT next month.
    1% per day is more the talk of gamblers than a trader, remember traders can churn over their stake/bank plenty of times during a day and even a race. There's very little point in having a large bank deposited with betfair if you're a trader as you'll never use it to it's exposure limits. No idea what markets you'll be trading but you'll have trouble sticking £10K through the racing markets in one chunk on a normal days racing and most of that bank will sit idle.

    Your trading bank only needs to be equal to the maximum exposure you consider acceptable in a market times 2, i.e. if the max you'll risk in a market is £1K liability/bet then £2K bank on deposit is more than enough , if you trade multiple markets obviously you need extra in the bank to cover them x2 also.

    Just looked thru my bethistory for last week and the biggest trades/liabilities I had were £2K on a 1.75 shot and biggest exposure was a lay of a 15 shot of just under £2.5K so I'd never actually need more than £2.5K even though I turned over matched bets of over £400K during the week.

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    It all depends on what kind of strategy you're using, everyone who makes money regularly has different strategies that would need different levels of bank. Really you need a strategy that is working for you for £2 stakes and then work up from there first to see how far you can push things. To satisfy your curiousity I'd say you might not need as much as maybe you'd expect - I doubt many people could double a 500 bank like MF but to make 500 from a 1k or 2k bank is not unrealistic IF you know what you're doing and have a great deal of experience to deal with the various changes in market conditions that happen constantly. If you're just starting then please don't chuck 1 or 2k in and expect to make money or even break even to begin with, you're highly likely to lose the lot. Its very competitive out there, many 1000s have signed up for trading software, books and expensive courses, yet how many are doing it every day?? Very few... So be realistic. At this point you're better off focusing on learning the markets as much as you can rather than thinking of money - any money you make will be as a consequence of the skills, knowledge and experience that you gain now. Who knows you may find you can earn a lot more than 500 a week if you're really good. But you should be aware thats its not a smooth ride, even someone who earns an average of 500 a week will not be getting the same as that all the time, one week you may make 900, the next 100, sometimes even the best will have an occasional loss.

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    Setting targets is a killer imo, as when you hit a bad loss your on a catch up mission one of the reason i dont think i could go fulltime, that said i have various ways of trading and now multimarket, Horses, Tennis and to a lesser extent Football and Greyhounds, as a fulltimer or indeed a partimer you must be willing and able to scratch trades for £0 or indeed a loss.

    As stated start out small, learn the ropes take the profits and the hits(REDS), theres also that other side of the human which we all have and need to control that being Greed, today is £500, next week is £550 and so it goes on and on.

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    I agree with most of the comments here.

    As already said the bank size depends entirely upon your trading strategy. Like MF, if you gave me £500 I would expect to turn that into £1,000 in a week. But if I gave that £500 to someone else they might turn it into £600 and be very happy. It all comes down to experience and how you use that £500. So the how long is a piece of string line is 100% right. What I need and what you need is entirely different.

    Some traders use 6 figure balances as they can then use this money to manipulate the markets, that isn't my style and if you gave me 6 figures the vast amount would sit there never being used and earning Betfair interest rather than me, I think the last time I saw Betfair made over £7 million in interest in one year on clients deposits alone!

    I keep around £4,000 in my account but I also have more money sat in a bank account ready should I need it. But 30 months or so ago I put £160 into my account and have not put more in since.

    You really do not need big money to make decent money. But also be aware that when you make £500 a week you will soon be wanting to make £1,000 a week etc etc as as traders we always want more (or should) and will always be wanting to improve.

    Jack Birkhead recently did a 30 minute video where he used £25 stakes on 3 races back to back and made a respectable amount. Have a look for it and watch it and you will see what is possible from small beginnings.

    But as already said the vast majority of people will never make it pay but that doesn't mean you should not try, just expect to put A LOT of work in watching hours and hours of markets. If you aren't prepared to do that don't be expecting much.

    Also don't go whacking in £1,000+ straight away as you will see just how quick you can turn that £1,000 into £500 and then £50 and then £0.

    Take it slowly to begin with and best of luck!

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    Check out the "stakes vs profits" fred here Tradepedia noob FAQ

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    I can never see the reluctance of traders to avoid setting targets, I think that's very much a part time/hobbyist traders mindset. I'd have thought most full time traders have targets in mind for the month much the same as anyone going to work full time knows what they're likely to earn that month. Doesn't mean they'll hit them or they'll be consistent throughout the year but when you've a mortgage/rent and other regular bills to pay you at least want to expect you'll cover them.
    Last edited by 1/4 of a millionaire fund; 9th March 2010 at 01:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Millionaire Fund View Post
    I can never see the reluctance of traders to avoid setting targets, I think that's very much a part time/hobbyist traders mindset. I'd have thought most full time traders have targets in mind for the month much the same as anyone going to work full time knows what they're likely to earn that month. Doesn't mean they'll hit them or they'll be consistent throughout the year but when you've a mortgage/rent and other regular bills to pay you at least want to expect you'll cover them.
    I am one of those traders who generally advises new traders not to set targets. I can assure you I am not a 'hobbyist'. I don't see the problems with setting general targets for a week or a month, but those targets must be comfortable. If your living expenses for a week are £500 and your target for the week is £500 which you just about achieve, then you're setting yourself up for problems. If your target is £2000 for the week and you generally comfortably make it, and your living expenses are £500, then you have much more leeway to prepare for bad runs (avoid dodgy curries would be my advice!)

    I see a lot of new traders setting themselves daily targets which could cause potential problems and doesn't enable the trader to be focused with the correct mindset. I am only prepared to take what the market is prepared to give me. But that is a result of the way I trade.

    If you're planning to go full-time trading, my advice would be to have enough money saved that your trading results on a daily and weekly basis really don't matter too much. You must prove to yourself through constant and consistent profitability that you can achieve what it is you want to achieve. If you have done that, and don't have the pressures of needing to earn enough money from trading to feed yourself, then I would say you stand a much better chance of success.

    To the OP, asking how large a bank you need to make a certain amount is not particularly relevant. Focus on the mechanics of trading, and the answers to the questions will become apparent. You really don't need very much money at all to start with if you can get good at what it is you've focused on.

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    There is a big difference between setting daily targets, and monthly, longer term targets.

    A good trader will know what is possible, and will know what they are averaging. Averaging though is the word to use here. No point putting more pressure on yourself to make a certain amount per day, or per race, as mindset would indicate that is just extra short term pressure. If you don't look like making that target, you push more. If you have already made it, you relax more. Either way, your mind is not right to continue.
    A decent average is good, but to get that average, means you are going to have to have good days, and bad days.
    I have seen what happens to somebody that places so much emphasis on ending each day with a good profit, or a zero loss. They lost everything.

    In saying that though, I don't believe the "500 a week" was any sort of daily target, more so an indication of the level of average income he is looking to make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Millionaire Fund View Post
    1% per day is more the talk of gamblers than a trader, remember traders can churn over their stake/bank plenty of times during a day and even a race. There's very little point in having a large bank deposited with betfair if you're a trader as you'll never use it to it's exposure limits. No idea what markets you'll be trading but you'll have trouble sticking £10K through the racing markets in one chunk on a normal days racing and most of that bank will sit idle.

    Your trading bank only needs to be equal to the maximum exposure you consider acceptable in a market times 2, i.e. if the max you'll risk in a market is £1K liability/bet then £2K bank on deposit is more than enough , if you trade multiple markets obviously you need extra in the bank to cover them x2 also.

    Just looked thru my bethistory for last week and the biggest trades/liabilities I had were £2K on a 1.75 shot and biggest exposure was a lay of a 15 shot of just under £2.5K so I'd never actually need more than £2.5K even though I turned over matched bets of over £400K during the week.
    Even though Iím looking to operate with a bank of $10K, you are right in saying that Iím not looking to put $10K on a position in play or in a pre-race market that is very volatile.

    However, I do like to have all of that money in my betfair account as I would certainly put a few thousand on a sporting fixture market (cricket, tennis, Football) looking to make ticks before the off if I believed it was worth tying that money up in such a situation. I might have a few different markets going of that nature. If you are diciplined enough, I donít see it being a problem as long there is enough liquidity. That way you will always be able to get out with minimal damage should you get it wrong.

    In fact, if you can cope with the boredom of such slow moving markets, trading these is actually a good way to learn for a beginner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMuntedPunter View Post
    That way you will always be able to get out with minimal damage should you get it wrong.
    No you won't! What happens if Betfair goes down while you are exposed? Betfair has been down a lot recently and for extended periods at times. You need to remember this and that ultimately you could lose all of your exposure if the worse were to happen and you need to accept this is a risk of trading!

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    Targets = Thinking about money.

    Thinking about money = Ego getting in the way of thinking about the markets

    Ego getting in the way of thinking about the markets = Poor performance


    Its natural to have thoughts about what you'd like to make spring up, same for pros too etc but if you put too much energy into these kind of thoughts you're handicapping yourself

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonthefixer View Post
    No you won't! What happens if Betfair goes down while you are exposed? Betfair has been down a lot recently and for extended periods at times. You need to remember this and that ultimately you could lose all of your exposure if the worse were to happen and you need to accept this is a risk of trading!
    If Betfair goes down, then CC deposit in to BetDaq or the bookies and back the opposing team.

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    It may not always be possible to do that - just something to bear in mind.

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    Very interesting thread.
    After long time in looking for a good betting strategy (and UNFORTUNATELY at the beginning of my "betting life" I have been lucky), I decided to try trading. In trading you can in some way know better your own personality and figure out where you are more confortable to operate... well, I understood (as many of you I think) that I was more confortable to earn money before the event begins ...

    I focussed on soccer... I know, I know... real money is in horse race, but it is simply not something I "feel" or I "fit"...

    I studied quotes and "money" and found really interesting some markets. As above written by some of you, STUDY is the most important period in trading...

    I seriously started in the beginning of December 2009 with a little amount... every day, I REPEAT: EVERY DAY, I learnt something. Today I have multiplied by 25,2 times this amount.

    I can assert that EVEN IF I have today a good feeling with my strategy with quite precise rules to follow IT HAPPENS ANYWAY to my STUPID ITALIAN BRAIN to go against these rules AND EVERY TIME it happens not to be a good thing to do. Fortunately, I always protect my bank without tragical loss.

    I would like to say that I have multiplied 25,2 times my initial bank, but that does not mean that if I had started with 1000 euro I would have 25.200 euro today!!! My stategy is to reach 50 time (without having a precise target I think to be able to reach this amount at the end of the next month). 50 will be my “base” then I reach 60, I take away 10 and start back with 50.

    I read that someone of you that try to move the market with "fake" money on some stake... I have also learned to "read" this strategy and according to the "weight" of the fake I understand where someone is trying to push the market and I follow the trail... (so thank you )

    To sum up: Learn, operate, learn again AND FOLLOW YOUR RULES.

    ps. I wrote in my above message that I have a "stupid Italian brain" but I would like to emphasize that it is not such stupid to vote for berlusconi (thank you for your comprehension)
    Last edited by mava1971; 11th March 2010 at 10:05 PM.

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    berlusconi is the guy that tried to eat a statue right ??

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