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Thread: How to beat the Premium Charge

  1. #1
    Director of Product Development & Quality Assurance Leonthefixer's Avatar
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    Default How to beat the Premium Charge

    I am sure several of the current users pay the Premium Charge, so I thought it would be useful if we could club together and see if we can find a stratergy so that we no longer pay the Premium Charge.

    I have seen on the General Bettign Forum there are several threads at the moment discussing this issue, but I like several others have been banned for life from the BF forum so can't read the actual threads. Thats what you get for standing up against the introduction of the Premium Charge!

    If anyone is willing to post up the discussions from the BF forum in a neat format here please do.

    So anyone got any ideas?

    I am at a loss for ideas.... I read on this blog post today (http://betstobefair.co.uk/wordpress/?p=1342) that he thinks it is easy to avoid the charge

    "There is no tax to pay on my profit. With my rounded strategy I pay the bare minimum commission to betfair and I certainly don’t pay the betfair premium charge. I am amazed how many people do though. Successful companies minimise the amount of tax they pay and to be honest it is dead easy not to pay betfair premium charge."

    So anyone any ideas what the easy way to avoid the PC is?

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    I find an excellent way to avoid it is to consistently fail to make a profit. You're more than welcome to use or pass on this groundbreaking method as you see fit

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    Web Strategy & Development Director jimrobo's Avatar
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    well I guess there are only 2 ways. Increase your commision or decrease your apparant profit.

    Arbing will decrease your profit as long as you lose on betfair! I know someone has got out of PC from this but its pretty dangerous IMO!

    Another way I guess is to run a bot that just does a straight lay system or something. Hopefully if you do it at random it should breakeven and it will massively increase your commission paid.

    Apart from that I don't know any other way?

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    Forum Guru Scumbag trader's Avatar
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    or, you could have 1000 computers, and whenver u want to open a position, back it for 50p on every computer with a different account

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    Director of European Operations Timstertoo's Avatar
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    Basically it comes down to either dual boxing yourself with 2 different accounts and IP's or working together with a friend, one doing backing, other doing laying.

    Or maybe not hedging so during some weeks you have less profit and no premium charge and other weeks you do. Better then having it EVERY week. Your income will become less stable but should be the same over the long run.
    If it wasn't for physics and law enforcement I'd be unstoppable!

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    Italian Ambassador genozzolo's Avatar
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    find arbs with bookies, if u win on bookie, u loose on betfair, and u stay down with profits

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    Director of European Operations Timstertoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genozzolo View Post
    find arbs with bookies, if u win on bookie, u loose on betfair, and u stay down with profits
    I haven't looked into the premium charge because, well.. euhm, it's not really relevant to me now or the foreseeable future BUT!

    If you can pinpoint where it starts you could even take bets at bookies that loose you a bit as you have 20% margin to move in.

    If you can loose enough to take away the premium charge and you do that through arbs that cost you 10% on those bets it's still a lot cheaper then the charge.

    So instead of spending a lot of time looking for arbs you could take care of it in one bet giving up some value.
    If it wasn't for physics and law enforcement I'd be unstoppable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonthefixer View Post
    I am sure several of the current users pay the Premium Charge, so I thought it would be useful if we could club together and see if we can find a stratergy so that we no longer pay the Premium Charge.

    I have seen on the General Bettign Forum there are several threads at the moment discussing this issue, but I like several others have been banned for life from the BF forum so can't read the actual threads. Thats what you get for standing up against the introduction of the Premium Charge!

    If anyone is willing to post up the discussions from the BF forum in a neat format here please do.

    So anyone got any ideas?

    I am at a loss for ideas.... I read on this blog post today (http://betstobefair.co.uk/wordpress/?p=1342) that he thinks it is easy to avoid the charge

    "There is no tax to pay on my profit. With my rounded strategy I pay the bare minimum commission to betfair and I certainly don’t pay the betfair premium charge. I am amazed how many people do though. Successful companies minimise the amount of tax they pay and to be honest it is dead easy not to pay betfair premium charge."

    So anyone any ideas what the easy way to avoid the PC is?
    He tells you how he does it in the link at the top of the page.

    The trick is to ensure that you run your betfair account at a small loss i.e. you deliberately lose money using matched betting to outweight the gains you make but betting. My wilkinson system provides live opportunities through out the day that allow you to do this.

    Once your bookmaker account get closed you open accounts up in partners names and you can also visit the shops. Yes it takes a bit of effort but surely thats better than paying betfair 20% of your winnings. At least in my opinion it is.

  9. #9
    Forum Guru Thomson's Avatar
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    Leon, I don’t pay the PC, nor am I likely to according to BF, my betting patterns do not come up on the radar. Got mail to that effect when it was introduced.
    As I remember it the target was consistent winners, in above a number of markets in a given time period.

    BF have a huge number of accounts so they must use some filters to identify the target account. This is my view.
    1: Total number of markets = more than X…yes/no.
    2: if yes…% of p/l + is more than X …yes/no
    3: if yes ….profit generated by 1 bet …yes/no.
    If no then this is the account of a consistent winner therefore apply charges..

    If BF use something like the above to flag up an account then they wont be concerned about how much profit is made or the way it is generated (traded or small edge bot) just the fact that it fit’s the criteria.
    Seems to me that condition 1 is the key, and it is easy to make condition 2 fall over if that is the case…You will know more than I about this calculation, does this seem along the right lines?

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    On the dole! The Joker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomson View Post
    Leon, I don’t pay the PC, nor am I likely to according to BF, my betting patterns do not come up on the radar. Got mail to that effect when it was introduced.
    As I remember it the target was consistent winners, in above a number of markets in a given time period.

    BF have a huge number of accounts so they must use some filters to identify the target account. This is my view.
    1: Total number of markets = more than X…yes/no.
    2: if yes…% of p/l + is more than X …yes/no
    3: if yes ….profit generated by 1 bet …yes/no.
    If no then this is the account of a consistent winner therefore apply charges..

    If BF use something like the above to flag up an account then they wont be concerned about how much profit is made or the way it is generated (traded or small edge bot) just the fact that it fit’s the criteria.
    Seems to me that condition 1 is the key, and it is easy to make condition 2 fall over if that is the case…You will know more than I about this calculation, does this seem along the right lines?
    I thought they changed the time period to be over the lifetime of the account?? One thing I've always been told when I asked anywhere is that the rules are clear as mud !! We could do with an betfair premium charge guide for dummies!!! (knight rider work some wizardry please)!!!

    Ultimately the premium charge is 
    Last edited by The Joker; 26th September 2009 at 08:57 AM.

  11. #11
    Forum Guru Thomson's Avatar
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    Agreed Shergar the PC is bad. I don’t keep up with the way they find the accounts these days because I’m not affected. However I would be interested in how BF locate the target accounts in the first instance.
    Obviously they don’t look at each individuals account p/l on a daily basis, so is the first port of call the number of markets traded? Next, percentage of positive p/l within those markets is above say 90%. Then this account shows up on the radar.

    If this is the case then it is easy to drop your account below that radar’s pick up level.
    Does anyone know how they find the account initially?

  12. #12
    Director of Product Development & Quality Assurance Leonthefixer's Avatar
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    Here is a copy of the Notes Betfair send out with each statement, it should help explain the criteria.
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    On the dole! The Joker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonthefixer View Post
    Here is a copy of the Notes Betfair send out with each statement, it should help explain the criteria.
    250 markets is that over 60 weeks too? Just 5 markets a week would trigger the first criteria! I thought that number would have been greater

  14. #14
    Director of Product Development & Quality Assurance Leonthefixer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shergar View Post
    250 markets is that over 60 weeks too? Just 5 markets a week would trigger the first criteria! I thought that number would have been greater
    Yup over the 60 weeks.

  15. #15
    Director of Product Development & Quality Assurance Leonthefixer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomson View Post
    However I would be interested in how BF locate the target accounts in the first instance. Obviously they don’t look at each individuals account p/l on a daily basis
    Sure you know this but obviously there isn't someone going through all the accounts, it is all done automated so one press of a buttton and all the qualifying accounts are found. It is calculated at Midnight on Sunday each week. So it runs Monday to Sunday.

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    So if im reAding this right you only pay premium charge if yiur showing a proffut fir the past 60 weeks so ur first 60 weeks is charge free??? What then happens if u don't use that account again for 120 weeks??

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    Forum Guru Thomson's Avatar
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    Thanks for that post Leon (12) that blows my theory out of the water.

    I thought it may have been possible to double the markets traded in by using the corresponding place market. Back and lay the offer on one runner would give a loss in that market albeit pennies. Thereby giving below 50% win strike rate over the account as regards markets to win ratio.

    Sadly that wont help you but worth posting.

  18. #18
    Director of Product Development & Quality Assurance Leonthefixer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shergar View Post
    So if im reAding this right you only pay premium charge if yiur showing a proffut fir the past 60 weeks so ur first 60 weeks is charge free??? What then happens if u don't use that account again for 120 weeks??
    You got a £1,000 'allowance' but that had been used on the 60 weeks prior to launch of the PC. You then got it back over the 60 weeks that have followed the launch of the PC. The initial rules were that you got a £1,000 allowance every year. But BF have recently annouced that they are now changing that to £1,000 for the entire life of the account. So once you use it it is gone forever. So as they back date the PC in all likelyhood you will have already used your £1,000 allowance a long time ago before the PC was introduced.

    For example you could have used it all up in 2002! So you would never get a £1,000 allowance - they aren't as daft as they come across sometimes!

    As they are now going to be looking at the account over the lifetime of the account it makes no difference if you don't use it for 3 years as they are taking the account as a whole.

    The only two options you really have is to turn your account into a losing account or by increasing the amount of commision you generate so that you are now paying 20% of your Gross Profit or more in commision. Neither of which is easy im my opinion.

    For example over the life of my account, my account is well in profit so I would need to lose a lot of money on the account and win it back else where without paying too much commision in the process.

    Second option is to increase my % commission I pay on my Gross Profit from what it is now (around 4%) to 20% which will require a heck of a lot of commission generation.

    So ideas on a postcard please!

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    Web Strategy & Development Director jimrobo's Avatar
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    the only thing I can think of is run a bot in the greyhounds and hope a, it doesn't lose more than you pay in PC or b, make money!!!

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    Media & PR Director Knight Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shergar View Post
    One thing I've always been told when I asked anywhere is that the rules are clear as mud !! We could do with an betfair premium charge guide for dummies!!!



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